#19: Consensual Non-Monogamy (Part 2)
COMMUNITY VOICE: Jennifer Schwartz | HEALTHCARE EXPERTS: Lordes Dolores Follins PhD LCSW; Heath Schechinger PhD | COMMUNITY REVIEWER: Annalisa Plumb
SHOW NOTES
Definitions
The terms
Compersion: vicarious joy associated with seeing one's partner have a joyful romantic or sexual relation with another.
Jealousy vs. envy (courtesy of Brene Brown)
Envy occurs when we want something that another person has.
Jealousy occurs when we want something that someone else has…at the expense of them having it.
Why does it matter?
Being precise about our feelings helps us understand what needs are driving those feelings
For example: do you want your partner not to eat ice cream? (hat’s jealousy) or do you just also want a scoop? (That’s envy)
Also, Brene Brown taught us that we’ve been using the word “jealousy” incorrectly for so long. This is a Brene Brown fan podcast.
Speaking of that green-eyed monster…
What jealousy (or envy) is:
An important internal signal to understand our own internal emotional landscape and our feelings towards our partners (and their actions)
More normal (and routine in non-monogamous relationship structures) than we often feel!
What drives jealousy:
Pops up when we fear losing a relationship or a valued part of a relationship that we already have.
Or, to quote our wise guest Dr. Follins: it’s often related to insecurity!
What to do about it:
Spend some time thinking about what it means for you (what’s causing it? why?)
Take the opportunity to sit with it
Consider talking to your partner(s) once you’ve generated some ways to resolve via relationship agreements, though know that your jealousy isn’t their responsibility completely!
The ecosystem of relational needs
We all have multiple “needs’ to be met by our relationships
Secure base:someone who's always going to be there, someone who's steady and feels like home.
Safe haven: someone who lets you show up as your whole and authentic self without fear of being judged.
A loving sexual connection
Sexual novelty: often related to mystery and - you guessed it - newness. Doesn’t always come from the same person who gives you a loving sexual connection
What’s the point?
Some partners may satisfy some, some may satisfy others
It’s all about checking the boxes - but not in any particular way (or necessarily from one single person!)
This can explain (and justify/support!) independence from a particular partner (be it a primary partner, nesting partner, etc) - you might need space to satisfy some of your other needs in other people!
TRANSCRIPT
Jennifer: I think these communities have some cool things to learn from one another, right? Like: sexual freedom. And – that is a beautiful thing. Like there are so many people, lots of them heterosexual, who could – who could benefit from a little injection of that in their life. That shaking up of that intense framework, that rigidity and then I think there are some things, some ideas that have been kept from the LGBT community that we've had to find for ourselves like vulnerability and tenderness with one another. And intimacy….because we were lied to by someone we were told that we would never have those things because we aren't heterosexual, right? Or – or “we're not monogamous,” or “we're not married to our partners” or whatever that thing is, you know?
[QHP THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Richard: Welcome to Queer Health Pod. We're a podcast about health topics for sexual and gender minority folks.
Gaby: I'm Gaby, she/her pronouns, primary care doctor to the stars! I mean, to queer people in New York City, it's like the same difference.
Sam: I'm Sam, I use he/him pronouns, and yes, I'm still here unpacking non monogamy.
Richard: And I'm Richard, I use he/him pronouns, and I'm the director of LGBTQ clinical services at Bellevue Hospital in New York City.
Gaby: You're listening to QHP: Season 2, Episode 9, Consensual Nonmonogamy (Part 2.)
[QHP THEME MUSIC STOPS]
Gaby: At the top of the episode, you heard from our community voice, Jennifer Schwartz.
Richard: Jennifer is a licensed therapist and a proud long standing member of the consensual non monogamous community.
Sam: And if you just heard a record scratch when RIchard said that term, consensual non monogamy –
Gaby: – which some people in the biz call CNM –
Sam: – then we'd recommend dialing back an episode to our prior episode, aptly titled CNM Part 1.
Gaby: In that episode, we go over the basic definition of non monogamy and different non monogamous relationship structures that you might see. We also talk about the different reasons why people might feel non monogamy is right for them and review some guidance from our experts if you or a loved one is considering entering into non monogamy
Richard: And if that was the 101 episode, this is the 201. Today we'll be diving into some of the more complex relationship dynamics that can come up for folks living in non monogamy. We'll touch upon jealousy, compersion, attachment styles, and where we can provide ways to bring it all back to the joy of it all.
Gaby: Speaking of joy, I want to start off by talking a little bit about stigma.
Sam: Classic monogamous lesbian buzzkill. Don't cancel me, she wrote that line.
Richard: I mean, total wet blanket. There's a gay girl joke in there somewhere…that Gaby wrote.
Gaby: OK (laughs) but I want to talk about why non monogamy feels like such a challenging topic. And I think the answer, for me at least, is really rooted in the stereotypes around non monogamous people.
Sam: That they are sex-crazy, that they're commitment-phobic, they aren't trustworthy, they're sluts.
Richard: And if you don't believe us, here's Heath Schechinger, who studies CNM communities, saying more of the same.
Schechinger: We're starting to gather research about how people are experiencing issues pertaining to coming out and the challenges of disclosing to others about their relationship orientation. Some people would even say it's much easier in terms of our cultural acceptance to come out about my sexual orientation than it is about being non-monogamous there's very prevalent STI stigma as well as religious prejudice
Richard: Then of course, there's the cheating stigma.
Gaby: Oh, you mean Jennifer's favorite topic?
Jennifer: The phrase that always really gets me is sometimes people will say like, “you're cheating on your spouse,” or “you have permission to cheat.” And I will say that is one that I really don't appreciate.
Sam: Why are cheating and CNM so often discussed together?
Gaby: Well, to bring it back to what Dr. Schechinger says, mononormativity – which is the basic premise that monogamy is the norm- – is one where people see multiple partners and automatically assume that this means infidelity since, again, the default is a one to one relationship
Richard: And really, that's not what cheating is. Cheating is the breaking of agreements, norms or rules that exist in any relationship. When we break those agreements, that can be cheating.
Sam: So, by that definition, non monogamy isn't cheating, because in a consensual non monogamous relationship, you've consented to being in a relationship that's not all about having one and only one partner.
Richard: Yes. And while consensual non-monogamy is not cheating, a move towards infidelity can happen on some people's journeys towards non- monogamy, which is what happened to Jennifer.
Jennifer: The other queer women that I knew were all about monogamy and it just did not work for me. So I did something that looked more like serial monogamy for awhile. I definitely cheated on some partners. And a few of them in like spectacular fashion. Oh, like not proud of some of the choices that I made as a young person at all.
Richard: Infidelity might be a way that someone expresses early on how the relationship agreements of monogamy are just not working for them.
Sam: And what does monogamy even mean? Is sexual intimacy playing footsie under the table with someone, or is it more involved, like touching someone's dick in a bathroom at a club, hypothetically speaking?
Richard: Like Gaby last weekend.
Sam: Gaby: you were also at that Hanukkah party?
Gaby: Oh my god.
Richard: Sam is hitting on a key reason why quote monogamy isn't enough of a relationship agreement. It's vague and it leaves a lot of room for miscommunication. This is even more complicated by the fact that monogamy isn't always an active choice. It's often the default assumption, like mononormativity. So for some people, they're entering into a relationship where they've never really interrogated whether the agreements would work for them or if they're precise enough. And when people don't have the tools or the space to interrogate that, they hide.
Schechinger: There's a lot of hiding. I think a lot of why there is infidelity is because there's not space to talk about the parts of them that want to or are curious about being open. With 30, 40% of relationships experiencing sexual infidelity? I think that it's time that we start asking what to do about that, and we can continue to try to squeeze a square peg round hole, or we can start opening up the conversation and creating more space for people to talk about this issue.
Gaby: How do people avoid the hiding? How do people create space to negotiate or even to renegotiate relationship agreements that feel good and authentic?
Sam: Dr. Schechinger breaks this down into three Cs.
Schechinger: There's some research that's focused on how the three CS of consent: comfort with the agreements and communication. regardless of what relationship agreements that you have, that these are strong indicators of the success of that relationship.
Gaby: So the first C is consent, which I'm interpreting as I consent to engaging in non monogamy as my relationship structure.
Richard: Which isn't actually all that easy to do. There's a lot of fear that being open or even talking about being open is the beginning of the end.
Gaby: Which is actually why Jennifer cuts to the chase pretty quickly when she meets new potential partners.
Jennifer: I try to get it out of the way really early on. That is like probably my own, sensitive to rejection self! If I put it out there, you know, people can decide that they're not interested really early on before, I get the heart eyes toward anybody and feel some kind of way about them being like, "oh no, you're with someone else." You know?
Sam: This is where we'll plug our first episode on non monogamy, where we talk more about transitioning from monogamy to a non monogamous relationship structure.
Richard: In summary, get in touch with why non monogamy intrigues you, or if it's not clear to you, maybe consider going to therapy as a resource to help you find the answer and develop a strong independent emotional foundation for when you do open your relationship.
Gaby: But let's say you've listened to that episode, you've done that work, and you're ready to actually talk about what your relationship agreements are. Then we move into Dr. Schechinger's second C, which is communication.
Sam: Dr. Follins a therapist who specializes in working with the CNM community, sees this as a defining part of a successful non monogamous structure
Follins: What I have found so impressive, is that folks that I have met both personally and professionally who identify as CNM or who are interested in being in consensually non-monogamous relationships. A level of communication, not just in depth, but also breadth as well as frequency that I don't see in most monogamous relationships. In order to be in a consensually non-monogamous relationship that is healthy the level of openness to new experiences, the level of self-awareness about your own interests, needs and desires and expectations, as well as an ability and an interest in improving your communication skills. there's still this commitment to. We are having conversations about what we're doing and we're making clear what everyone's expectations, hopes, and fears are. That's a possibility model for relationships. It's a possibility for all relationships, that level of commitment and dedication, and as well as just the openness to see what can happen. And the openness to abundance.
Gaby: I just want to pause before we actually talk about Dr. Follins' quotes to say that she just has this really lovely way of speaking, like, this openness to abundance. Absolutely swooning.
Richard: Same. I think it's worth noting that the kind of communication that we've been talking about is not a one and done situation. Yes, there's the conversation you have as you might open up your relationship or establish a relationship as a part of a non monogamous structure, but then you revisit it.
Sam: Over and over and over again.
Gaby: And then once more, for good measure
Follins: if we think about the fact that we're constantly changing because we're constantly getting new information, we're constantly learning things and we're constantly checking out things that don't work for us. And so in that process, it seems logical to me that our agreements about our relationships also have to change. But again, if we think about things like nature, at least here in the, on the east coast, you know, we have seasons give or take. If you just look at the trees, the trees will stay the same all year long. Unless they're pine trees or fir trees, they don't say the same all year long. Why would a relationship stay the same? Why would the boundaries, or the agreements of a relationship stay the same? Whereby the natural world doesn't stay the same?
Richard: Many couples are not used to the idea of redefining their relationships, particularly in monogamy. If there's an expectation that those agreements are static or even predetermined, then there's not an impetus to revisit them and people can feel stuck.
Gaby: And then the thing to me that's a little bit tricky here is when do you revisit? I know the answer is, it depends, but I want to see if there are any signals that you do or maybe don't need to sit down and talk with your partner or partners. Or maybe you just like anxiously and frenetically check in with people in loops until you die.
Richard: I mean, that's a perfect segue into compersion, Gaby.
Gaby: Or my anxiety disorder. I don't know, one or the other.
Sam: Whether you google "Gaby's Anxiety Disorder" or "compersion" you can do both with your safe search on, but we compersion clarify what compersion means for you.
Richard: To quote. Brene Brown – who is totally my fave– envy occurs when we want something another person has. Jealousy is when we fear losing a relationship or valued part of a relationship that we already have.
Gaby: And I think this is something that I have always taken away from that Brené Brown quote, which comes from, it comes from Atlas of the Heart, right, Richard?
Richard: Correct.
Gaby: So, the idea that we use " Oh, you got an ice cream today, I'm so jealous." But jealousy is actually a much more sinister emotion, in my opinion, because it implies, a zero sum game or mutual exclusivity: " I am jealous of your ice cream, which means that I want it and you shouldn't have it." Whereas envy feels more like, "oh, I think I would also like an ice cream. That sounds delicious. I'm gonna get one, too. I'm envious of you."
Richard: By contrast, compersion is our wholehearted participation in the happiness of others. It's that sympathetic joy we feel for someone else, even when their positive experience doesn't involve or benefit us directly.
Gaby: And that I think is really key, because if you think about the ways that I delineated between jealousy and envy... you can be envious of someone and experience compersion for them too. So you can say, "I'd love an ice cream, but I'm really happy for you that you got an ice cream." That's envy and compersion existing at the same time.
Richard: Absolutely. And I – I brought up these terms to answer your original question, Gaby because the presence of jealousy or even the absence of compersion can be an important clue about when it's time to talk.
Jennifer: I don't think you have to feel like the full weight of jealousy all day every day, because it's because it's not pleasant, but trying to find it out, like point it out and name it when when it comes up for me. It is like this little, like red flashing light, like, "Hey, look at me, something needs your attention over here" -right? So in some ways it's actually kind of a gift it's like my spidey senses are going off. There's something in my relationship that needs my attention and that I should do some digging on. And often it's personal reflection, even, right? That's where you have to start.
Sam: If you didn't hear that last sentence, it's important, so we'll play it back for you –
[REWIND NOISE]
Jennifer: Often it's personal reflection, even, right? That's where you have to start.
Richard: It's such a common misconception. "I'm jealous, which means my partner did something wrong and so I must hash it out with them so that they can change their behavior." Listen to Dr. Follins on this one.
Follins: We live in a world, particularly here in the West, we live in a world whereby other people have responsibility for our feelings, regardless of what they are. We don't have responsibility for these things. I have a feeling you must tend to it.
Gaby: When in reality, our feelings should prompt a good look in the mirror as a starting point.
Jennifer: I really like the idea that like, when jealousy comes up, that's like time for me to do some self work right. To at least figure out what is it for me that's coming up or why, you know, why am I feeling this way? What is it about the two of you going on a date to get ice cream together that is, really like sticking in my craw. Is it just cause I want some fucking ice cream, like that's perfectly legitimate. But it's my job to figure that out before I take it to anyone else to make a request. "Hey, can I come with you? Hey, can you bring me some ice cream?" Or, you know, expressing a need? Like, "I need something different from you. You know, I need, I need more warning before you go, or I need to not know the details of your date "or, you know, whatever that might be.
Richard: And Dr. Follins has some observations on what might be driving either jealousy or envy
Follins: Like jealousy comes from someplace. And I find often not every time, but often it's related to insecurity. "I'm jealous because I'm insecure that I don't have enough" or" I'm feeling insecure that I won't get enough," you know, just this idea of scarcity. What I think is definitely related to capitalism, right? Under capitalism, we're definitely taught that there isn't enough food. There isn't enough money. There isn't enough love. If we, if we try to change our idea about love as you know, this commodity that is limited to something that can be abundant, regardless of relationship structure... that can change our relationship to jealousy and insecurity as it pertains to our intimate, romantic and sexual relationships.
Richard: But I want to be clear, this self-interrogation, while excellent, doesn't magically fix jealousy.
Follins: It doesn't necessarily make the jealousy go away, but then it gives the other person or other people an opportunity to kind of assuage their fears to say, "oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that. Maybe we should renegotiate whether I come home or not, or whether we should renegotiate, whether I even tell you that I got this date."
Sam: But even if you offer the chance to negotiate, doesn't absolve our own personal responsibility. Like great, you've looked internally to understand your jealousy, you maybe thought of some ways you might renegotiate your relationship agreements to avoid that, but the self- work isn't done.
Jennifer: The flip side of that, of that jealousy is that, that, that jealousy is still mine. It stays mine and it stays mine to manage that just because I've shared it with someone else doesn't mean that my request has to be met with a "yes, absolutely, oh my gosh. We'll do this thing because it would be the worst thing ever for you to be jealous." When in fact the answer might be "thanks for letting me know, I'll take that into consideration next time." Or "Actually that's not a thing I can accommodate at all. Keep doing your work and come back if you have another request or if there is a way that I can assist you with what it is that you're feeling." I can understand why that feels terrible. Like it never feels good to be vulnerable with a person and to have your expression of vulnerability be rejected or whatever. . But it's not the other person's responsibility from the jump to like pick up, you know, your broken, jealous self and fix you. And it's also not like they get to operate as though the two of you have no emotional connection at all either.
Sam: Jennifer's point here is key, that you might not be able to eliminate the jealousy by renegotiating relationship agreements. Sometimes you have to sit with the jealousy and navigate through it or with it.
Schechinger: There's research pointing at how people in non-monogamous relationships tend to have much lower levels of jealousy, both in their thinking and in their behavior, but that it takes time. That's just a little bit feeling weirdly or a little bit shaky about it. That theoretically I'm okay with this. And I'm fully supportive of maybe my partner going on this date. And I'm just feeling maybe a little weak in the knees.
Richard: We've been talking about jealousy as though it's an inherently bad or negative thing. But I want to push us to reframe the moments where we might feel jealous. There is a mononormative societal message that if your partner is off doing something else you are lonely or bereft or a loser. But why not see these as opportunities to be independent and autonomous? How does having more limited time with one of your partners help you appreciate and curate the time you spend together and make it more meaningful?
Sam: Can we bill you for this therapy session, Richard, or are you going to Venmo us?
Richard: Venmo you, like always.
Heath: I think that having a sense of independence and trusting. Our partner with others or how allowing flexibility or freedom can be something that really eases a lot of the pressure in a relationship. And that's certainly a pattern that I see in happy non-monogamous relationships is that there's this general level of trust in my partner's commitment to the relationship. And that allows there to be more freedom for my partner to engage and connect with their other partners in a more autonomous way.
Gaby: We spent some time last episode talking about how some of the lessons from non-monogamous structures have applicability for those of us who are very lame and monogamous. And to me, this feels related to the conversation we're having now about autonomy. Like regardless of your relationship orientation, there is value in not being codependent with your partner. And I know that term is sort of a buzzword, but whatever.
Richard: It's totally a buzzword. And I want to be clear that we can experience healthy interdependence in any or all of our relationships. A dynamic way of giving and receiving care with our partners. Codependence implies an anxious attachment or fear of being apart.
Gaby: And I guess the point is, like, we're not gonna get everything we need from one person in all likelihood. Whether you're engaging in multiple romantic relationships or multiple friendships in one romantic relationship. So like, for example, I love my wife, she's wonderful, she cares for me deeply and does lots of laundry, but she doesn't rock climb, and it's a real fucking problem.
Sam: Wait, I'm sorry, before my stereotypes get completely shaken, tell me she at least has a dietary restriction.
Gaby: She does not.
Richard: Shocking. What you're getting at, Gaby, besides shaming your basketball playing wife, is the concept of the quote, ecosystem of needs. The notion that to be emotionally and relationally fulfilled, we need the person or people we're with to meet a variety of our needs or to check different boxes, as it were.
Sam: And, pray tell, what are those boxes?
Richard: We largely need a secure base, someone who's always going to be there, someone who's steady and feels like home. There's also this idea of a safe haven, which can be the same person or someone different than the secure base, someone who lets you show up as your whole and authentic self without fear of being judged. My husband and I call this house rules. As long as you bring your full and authentic self to our conversations, then we're fine. This is before we even get into talking about sex. The idea of erotic attraction and pleasure, a loving sexual connection, as distinct from, say, sexual adventure or kink, because you may get one of these from one person and another from someone else.
Schechinger: I think that regardless of what your relationship structure is that we need to create more space to talk about the parts of us that both want security and that desire novelty. And that seems to be a relative human universal. And monogamy doesn't do the greatest job of preparing us to navigate that in relationships.
Sam: And yes, some people can find security and novelty in the same person year over year, and maybe they can also find a secure base and a safe haven in that person too. But being honest, without a cat, or even with a cat, it's realistic that someone doesn't meet all of those needs.
Gaby: Maybe you find someone who checks only a few of those boxes, but they do it well. Or you do find someone who checks all of those boxes for you, but things run their course. Non-monogamy teaches us that neither of these relationships is a failure.
Jennifer: I think there are some standards for what makes a relationship quote, unquote, successful you know, that we are taught - indoctrinated with - from our youth. And one of them is definitely like this time piece that, that relationships last forever. So many things that go along with that, but the idea that like, if you're in a relationship and that relationship ends, that that relationship is somehow wasted time. And that, yes, like, you know, if God forbid, if you ever break up, like, you know, there was something wrong with the relationship, and that it now has no value. One of the things that I admire about my nesting partner is that she's always kind of said to me, this idea that like, we'll be together as long as love lasts. So as long as it works for both of us, as long as we're both happy and successful and we're sharing resources in the way that we want to, and it feels good, that's how long we're going to be together. And in some ways, to me, that is a much more romantic sentiment than like being chained to someone for the rest of their life. And just like dragging this albatross around your neck, around with you everywhere you go, because the two of you can't stand one another anymore.
Sam: Inspired? You can reach out to us to have us write your writing vows they're going to be long vows.
[QHP THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Richard: QHP is a power sharing podcast that puts community stories in conversation with healthcare expertise to expand autonomy for sexual and gender minority folks.
Gaby: To get more into the transcript and all of the stuff that came into the making of this episode, please see our online show notes at www. queerhealthpod. com.
Sam: Thank you to our community reviewer, Annalisa Plumb.
Richard: Thanks to Dr. Heath Schechinger, Dr. Lourdes Dolores Follins, and Jennifer Schwartz.
Gaby: Help others find this information by leaving a review, subscribing to our podcast on Spotify or Apple, or just sending this episode to someone who you think would benefit from listening to it.
Richard: Our handle is atqueerhealthpod on Twitter or X and Instagram. You can also email us at queerhealthpod at gmail. com.
Sam: Thank you as always to Lonnie Ginsberg, who composed the wonderful theme music heard throughout the episode.
Gaby: And lastly, this is our final episode of season two. We'll be taking a hiatus and we'll be back with season three shortly, but if you have ideas of what you want us to cover in the next season, send them in. We gave you our socials or you can just text Richard. His number is
Richard: Don't dox me, Gaby. opinions on this podcast are our own and do not represent the opinions of any of our affiliated institutions. Even though we are physicians, do not use this podcast as medical advice and instead consult with your own healthcare provider.
[QHP THEME MUSIC ENDS]
Gaby: Oh –
Sam: That's not your name, Ricard!
Gaby: Ricardo, darling. It's good to see you. It's been so long, Ricardo. Ricardo, I haven't seen you at the theater in ages. Alright. Putting the transatlantic away.